Understanding the Color Managed Workflow https://bthedigitalmonochromeforum.runboard.com/t200823 Runboard| Understanding the Color Managed Workflow en-us Fri, 29 Mar 2024 08:42:20 +0000 Fri, 29 Mar 2024 08:42:20 +0000 https://www.runboard.com/ rssfeeds_managingeditor@runboard.com (Runboard.com RSS feeds managing editor) rssfeeds_webmaster@runboard.com (Runboard.com RSS feeds webmaster) akBBS 60 Re: Understanding the Color Managed Workflowhttps://bthedigitalmonochromeforum.runboard.com/p2040551,from=rss#post2040551https://bthedigitalmonochromeforum.runboard.com/p2040551,from=rss#post2040551quote:StevenZ wrote: Even when printing with Epson ABW, the results are better with Adobe 1998. The reason for this is because the ABW driver has been engineered to produce a more neutral response curve when you feed it an image which is Gamma 2.2 encoded which Adobe 1998 is. If printing direct from Lightroom which is Gamma 1.8 encoded you need to change thew tone settings in the ABW driver nondisclosed_email@example.com (IanBarber)Sun, 09 Aug 2015 16:30:26 +0000 Re: Understanding the Color Managed Workflowhttps://bthedigitalmonochromeforum.runboard.com/p2040550,from=rss#post2040550https://bthedigitalmonochromeforum.runboard.com/p2040550,from=rss#post2040550quote:martinimages wrote: This is a good listen and might tell you Simon about the colours in ProPhoto causing problems with certain files thanks Martin , don't know how I missed this before nondisclosed_email@example.com (Digital Finger)Sun, 09 Aug 2015 16:24:19 +0000 Re: Understanding the Color Managed Workflowhttps://bthedigitalmonochromeforum.runboard.com/p2040544,from=rss#post2040544https://bthedigitalmonochromeforum.runboard.com/p2040544,from=rss#post2040544Even when printing with Epson ABW, the results are better with Adobe 1998.nondisclosed_email@example.com (StevenZ)Sun, 09 Aug 2015 12:27:06 +0000 Re: Understanding the Color Managed Workflowhttps://bthedigitalmonochromeforum.runboard.com/p2040404,from=rss#post2040404https://bthedigitalmonochromeforum.runboard.com/p2040404,from=rss#post2040404quote:StevenZ wrote: As I've only recently discovered, there is at least one disadvantage to using the ProPhoto colorspace. Ian, if you recall, several months ago, I asked for your assistance because my black and white prints were coming out very dark using my Epson 3800. Even when I shared my screen with you on Skype neither one of us could diagnose the problem. Well, I've gone back to Adobe 1998 and the print output is perfect. What I see on my screen and print preview is exactly what I get. No more fussing around with curves or shadow boost actions. I just wanted to make you aware of this. Having gathered more information, I now understand that QTR expects to receive a file with a gamma value of 2.2 which is probably why You are getting better results from Adobe 1998. I still feel it is better to edit all the way through and then save the image in Adobe 1998 prior to printing nondisclosed_email@example.com (IanBarber)Wed, 05 Aug 2015 19:00:48 +0000 Re: Understanding the Color Managed Workflowhttps://bthedigitalmonochromeforum.runboard.com/p2040403,from=rss#post2040403https://bthedigitalmonochromeforum.runboard.com/p2040403,from=rss#post2040403As I've only recently discovered, there is at least one disadvantage to using the ProPhoto colorspace. Ian, if you recall, several months ago, I asked for your assistance because my black and white prints were coming out very dark using my Epson 3800. Even when I shared my screen with you on Skype neither one of us could diagnose the problem. Well, I've gone back to Adobe 1998 and the print output is perfect. What I see on my screen and print preview is exactly what I get. No more fussing around with curves or shadow boost actions. I just wanted to make you aware of this. nondisclosed_email@example.com (StevenZ)Wed, 05 Aug 2015 18:56:42 +0000 Re: Understanding the Color Managed Workflowhttps://bthedigitalmonochromeforum.runboard.com/p2035429,from=rss#post2035429https://bthedigitalmonochromeforum.runboard.com/p2035429,from=rss#post2035429Thanks Ian, things become even clearer and I will see what the future brings. Normannondisclosed_email@example.com (Norman2)Sun, 15 Feb 2015 14:58:17 +0000 Re: Understanding the Color Managed Workflowhttps://bthedigitalmonochromeforum.runboard.com/p2035421,from=rss#post2035421https://bthedigitalmonochromeforum.runboard.com/p2035421,from=rss#post2035421Think of colour space as nothing more than a box. As photographers, we have 3 sized boxes which we use Small = sRGB Medium = AdobeRGB 1998 Large = ProphotoRGB When you scan your slides, the scanner software will give you a list of options as to what colour space you can have. Choose the largest available. Just remember though that if you scan in Adobe RGB for example, you can still work in ProPhoto in Photoshop but you will not gain any extra data simply because you scanned the negative in at AdobeRGB. Black and White is another Rat Hole i'm afraid. Some like to work in the Grey colour space which I can understand if your original file started its life as black and white but for DSLR where the original RAW capture is colour, then using an RGB Colour space for your digital black and white edits will give you greater control of the conversion.nondisclosed_email@example.com (IanBarber)Sun, 15 Feb 2015 14:37:45 +0000 Re: Understanding the Color Managed Workflowhttps://bthedigitalmonochromeforum.runboard.com/p2035401,from=rss#post2035401https://bthedigitalmonochromeforum.runboard.com/p2035401,from=rss#post2035401This is a very interesting subject which I can only just begin to understand however, what I would like to know is what effect, if any, the chosen colour space could have on what I am trying to do. Firstly, does a digitised colour slide and/or colour negative have the same sort of colour range as would be captured by a DSLR (assuming a RAW image) and how are the images formed by a black and white conversion affected by the colour space set? Normannondisclosed_email@example.com (Norman2)Sun, 15 Feb 2015 11:17:05 +0000 Re: Understanding the Color Managed Workflowhttps://bthedigitalmonochromeforum.runboard.com/p2035388,from=rss#post2035388https://bthedigitalmonochromeforum.runboard.com/p2035388,from=rss#post2035388ProPhoto will only cause issues with certain saturated colours because the devices we use today (2015) are only capable of displaying a smaller gamut of colours. Surely it makes sense to preserve all the data we capture in the RAW file. We do this by placing into the largest box at our disposal which today (2015) is ProPhotoRGB. I accept that we may not be able to print or display all these colours which is why soft proofing and rendering intent is there to guide us. But what about the future ? What happens in 3,5,10 years from now when the output devices can output a gamut range of ProPhoto. Those that decided to place all that data they captured into a smaller box (sRGB, AdobeRGB) will be kicking themselves as they will have to go back and re-edit from scratch.nondisclosed_email@example.com (IanBarber)Sat, 14 Feb 2015 23:14:58 +0000 Re: Understanding the Color Managed Workflowhttps://bthedigitalmonochromeforum.runboard.com/p2035384,from=rss#post2035384https://bthedigitalmonochromeforum.runboard.com/p2035384,from=rss#post2035384quote:martinimages wrote: With respect Ian that is your workflow, there are dozens of threads about this on the net that are for and against either. It has to be the end user to study both and come to an educated decision as which suits them. It should read The workflow YOU use I stand by my statement :P nondisclosed_email@example.com (IanBarber)Sat, 14 Feb 2015 23:00:32 +0000 Re: Understanding the Color Managed Workflowhttps://bthedigitalmonochromeforum.runboard.com/p2035362,from=rss#post2035362https://bthedigitalmonochromeforum.runboard.com/p2035362,from=rss#post2035362This is a good listen and might tell you Simon about the colours in ProPhoto causing problems with certain files nondisclosed_email@example.com (martinimages)Sat, 14 Feb 2015 21:28:16 +0000 Re: Understanding the Color Managed Workflowhttps://bthedigitalmonochromeforum.runboard.com/p2032410,from=rss#post2032410https://bthedigitalmonochromeforum.runboard.com/p2032410,from=rss#post2032410well I have been printing using ProPhoto, but this does raise interesting questions. We have all seen what happens when you try t posta n image in prophoto on the web, that exaggerates the problem of course but must to some extent illustrate what happens albeit t a lesser extent , what you edit in prophoto and then print Im sure nothing is noticed when doing mono but I can sure imagine it could cause problems with colour Colour printing it seesm to em is yet another minefield over and above B+W printing. Dan Marguilis in his book about LAB colourspace asserts that you can go back and forth between Prophoto and LAB numerous times with no ill effect upon colour, yet when I tried it ONCE the result was colours so scrambled that what should have been postbox red wanted to print as almost pure megenta, and when I posted on several forums about this , n one could explein wy it had happened. this is complicated stuff my friendsnondisclosed_email@example.com (Digital Finger)Mon, 06 Oct 2014 09:34:08 +0000 Re: Understanding the Color Managed Workflowhttps://bthedigitalmonochromeforum.runboard.com/p2032401,from=rss#post2032401https://bthedigitalmonochromeforum.runboard.com/p2032401,from=rss#post2032401Stick to what I have put and you won't go far wrongnondisclosed_email@example.com (IanBarber)Sun, 05 Oct 2014 20:25:44 +0000 Re: Understanding the Color Managed Workflowhttps://bthedigitalmonochromeforum.runboard.com/p2032398,from=rss#post2032398https://bthedigitalmonochromeforum.runboard.com/p2032398,from=rss#post2032398With respect Ian that is your workflow, there are dozens of threads about this on the net that are for and against either. It has to be the end user to study both and come to an educated decision as which suits them. It should read The workflow YOU use nondisclosed_email@example.com (martinimages)Sun, 05 Oct 2014 20:07:12 +0000 Re: Understanding the Color Managed Workflowhttps://bthedigitalmonochromeforum.runboard.com/p2032397,from=rss#post2032397https://bthedigitalmonochromeforum.runboard.com/p2032397,from=rss#post2032397The workflow should be 1) Capture in RAW 2) Process RAW file in a Raw converter 3) Edit the converted RAW file in Prophoto RGB Create a copy and convert to ... sRGB for the internet Adobe RGB for printing if your printer does not exceed Adobe RGB 1998 nondisclosed_email@example.com (IanBarber)Sun, 05 Oct 2014 19:55:39 +0000 Re: Understanding the Color Managed Workflowhttps://bthedigitalmonochromeforum.runboard.com/p2032396,from=rss#post2032396https://bthedigitalmonochromeforum.runboard.com/p2032396,from=rss#post2032396I don't know other than to say use Pro Photo where you can, RGB where you can't. sRGB only for the web I suppose the question is, if you cannot see the full spectrum of ProPhoto and it is quite a lot bigger that Adobe 1998 on screen then how on earth can you edit correctly, all its doing is pulling back the out of Gamut colours and that could or would lead to in correct colours when proofing for print. Anyway I digress as this could go on for years nondisclosed_email@example.com (martinimages)Sun, 05 Oct 2014 19:47:40 +0000 Re: Understanding the Color Managed Workflowhttps://bthedigitalmonochromeforum.runboard.com/p2032392,from=rss#post2032392https://bthedigitalmonochromeforum.runboard.com/p2032392,from=rss#post2032392This is where he is wrong though The Epson 3880, 4800 and doe the Canon printers can print outside the Adobe RGB 1998 colour space so given that information, why would you not want to use the capabilities offered. ?nondisclosed_email@example.com (IanBarber)Sun, 05 Oct 2014 19:10:59 +0000 Re: Understanding the Color Managed Workflowhttps://bthedigitalmonochromeforum.runboard.com/p2032391,from=rss#post2032391https://bthedigitalmonochromeforum.runboard.com/p2032391,from=rss#post2032391I think guy is saying that at this moment in time there are no monitors or printers that can reproduce the data or colours and the rendering intent has to compress all the out of Gamut colours that ProPhoto produce, the Adobe 1998 can be seen now and printed. I think I would rather work in a colour space I can see and print and if in the future there are monitors and printers that can render the ProPhoto space then then as long as you shoot in Raw you would indeed want to re edit with all that data available. However there are differing opinions and views on the net to which is the best colour space to work in at this moment in time, its confusing to say the least but I did think he talked sense and he was not just a person giving his opinion he works for X-rite and they are specialists in this field.nondisclosed_email@example.com (martinimages)Sun, 05 Oct 2014 19:07:18 +0000 Re: Understanding the Color Managed Workflowhttps://bthedigitalmonochromeforum.runboard.com/p2032386,from=rss#post2032386https://bthedigitalmonochromeforum.runboard.com/p2032386,from=rss#post2032386The issue I was raising is that the Epson R3800 printers for example can produce colour which is slightly larger than Adobe RGB 1998 providing you have a proper profile for the paper so armed with this, I still feel that ProPhoto is the ay to go. Also by staying in pro photo we are preserving all the data in the file for future software/monitors etcnondisclosed_email@example.com (IanBarber)Sun, 05 Oct 2014 18:36:00 +0000 Re: Understanding the Color Managed Workflowhttps://bthedigitalmonochromeforum.runboard.com/p2032382,from=rss#post2032382https://bthedigitalmonochromeforum.runboard.com/p2032382,from=rss#post2032382Thanks for posting this Martin. I think the bloke did a good job of addressing a very complex and dry subject. I will need to see how I get on having my prints produced commercially before I start thinking about color monkis various products though. As apart from anything else, I would likely need a new printer as well and it could all get very expensive I don't think I could currently convince myself that was the way to go - let alone Higher Management. On Ian's point about 'throwing ProPhoto RGB out of the window' I thought he was simply saying that there are no or very few monitors and printers that can actually show the full ProPhoto range of colours and so on purely practical grounds it wasn't relevant to the vast majority of photographers. (But I don't have the mental energy to go back and check) Probably needless to say but this stuff is way outside my comfort/knowledge zone. nondisclosed_email@example.com (Elines)Sun, 05 Oct 2014 17:14:40 +0000 Re: Understanding the Color Managed Workflowhttps://bthedigitalmonochromeforum.runboard.com/p2032366,from=rss#post2032366https://bthedigitalmonochromeforum.runboard.com/p2032366,from=rss#post2032366??I couldn't get it to work - just got an error message??? EDIT - sorry - just seen the link nondisclosed_email@example.com (Elines)Sat, 04 Oct 2014 22:26:15 +0000 Re: Understanding the Color Managed Workflowhttps://bthedigitalmonochromeforum.runboard.com/p2032323,from=rss#post2032323https://bthedigitalmonochromeforum.runboard.com/p2032323,from=rss#post2032323Everything seemed good until I feel he tripped himself up by throwing ProPhoto RGB out of the window. What happened to his Cone theory he started off talking about ?nondisclosed_email@example.com (IanBarber)Sat, 04 Oct 2014 08:00:06 +0000 Understanding the Color Managed Workflowhttps://bthedigitalmonochromeforum.runboard.com/p2032310,from=rss#post2032310https://bthedigitalmonochromeforum.runboard.com/p2032310,from=rss#post2032310Following a reference on the forum regarding sRGB colour space, this video is a quite easy to understand and might helpful you in the future, its lecture from the experts at X-Rite It looks at Colour spaces and explains what they cover and which is best. Making Paper Profiles and ColorMunki Soft Proofing Rendering intents ETC ETC If video does not play go to this link Understanding the colour Managed Workflow nondisclosed_email@example.com (martinimages)Fri, 03 Oct 2014 19:38:03 +0000