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martinimages Profile
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Re: Do I need Photoshop?


Well I cannot comment on the others software you mentioned, get a free 30 day trial of Photoshop and see what you think,


Regards
Martin

---
"After that shutter closes it’s all over. The physical light captured on film is all that is left, a history of light preserved in chemical form, and I have to move on to the next one."

http://martinhensonphotography.co.uk
11/Aug/14, 7:48 pm Link to this post Send Email to martinimages   Send PM to martinimages MSN Blog
 
myotisone Profile
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Re: Do I need Photoshop?


quote:

martinimages wrote:

Well I cannot comment on the others software you mentioned, get a free 30 day trial of Photoshop and see what you think,


Regards
Martin



Thanks Martin, as I mentioned in another post, I have Photoshop on my work computer,, I was really interested in a more expert view of photoshop vs plugins, given the points I raised.

I still feel Photoshop is probably the way to go.

Cheers,

Graham


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Elines Profile
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Re: Do I need Photoshop?


I'm trying to get by with Photoshop Elements 11 and the Nik collection including SFEX.

One big issue that may be a decider for you is the ability (or notemoticon) to work completely in 16 bit as opposed to having to use 8 bit for some things.

There is a discussion on this very topic in the Elements Village forum - which is (generally ) devoted to all versions of Elements.

[url][sign in to see URL]

And even there it seems experienced users hold opposing views on whether or not you can do all you need with Elements (which has restricted use of 16 bit) once you take it out of Adobe Camera Raw (ACR) and into PSE proper.

For example I posted the question:

'if you process an image in 16 bit in ACR (in pse 11) and then have to convert it to 8 bit to use some tools - then doesn't that remove all benefit of starting with 16 bit?'

I received two answers-

Answer 1: No

Answer 2: Yes

Each from people who seemed to know what they were talking about and had previously debated on the general topic.

So I suppose the lesson is - make all reasonable enquiries to try to make sure that whatever it is you want to do, that whatever you get will do it.

By the way ... the person who said 'yes, you do lose the benefit' said:

"RawTherapee* does an outstanding job of processing the RAW images, and PhotoLine gives me just about all of the features of the "big" Photoshop at a price similar to PSE."

*this is free

and as regards data base management he said:

"I decided to spend the money ($100 USD) on a high-quality Digital Asset Management program -- IMatch5. I'm very pleased with it"

BTW.... if anyone on here has a view on the question I posed I would be more than glad to hear it - even though I would probably become even more confused than I am nowemoticon

---
Chris

One day I might grow up, but I hope not
Say YES unless good reason to contrary
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martinimages Profile
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Re: Do I need Photoshop?


I far as I know,if you convert from 16bit to 8bit and save, converting back to 16 bit does not work, the conversion to 8 bit throws away data.

Working that way always make a duplicate of your 16 bit files and use the 8 bit for working on.

Martin

---
"After that shutter closes it’s all over. The physical light captured on film is all that is left, a history of light preserved in chemical form, and I have to move on to the next one."

http://martinhensonphotography.co.uk
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myotisone Profile
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Re: Do I need Photoshop?


quote:

Elines wrote:
And even there it seems experienced users hold ...



I think that no two people have the same expectations and experiences, which will nearly always lead to differences of opinion.

It's made worse by things which even though technically are better, have differences that go unnoticed in the real world. In my current photoshop research, I have found more than one person write that they no longer bother working in 16 bit, because they weren't able to detect any difference in the quality of the prints they were producing.

And obviously from my question here, I have found the photoshop or alernative software with plugins, question impossible to sort out.

What was even more confusing was from those who argued you needed photoshop, but then when describing their workflow, did everything with silver effex and didn't make use of any photoshop features.

Any way, I have now bitten the bullet, and photoshop cc is downloading as I type.

Given that I always upgrade lightroom anyway, and was considering elements or/and topaz photofxlab, the cost is reasonable even though I don't really want to get locked into a subscription.

But I am only really going to be able to make a decision by spending a few years developing expertise in the different options. At that time I can rethink the subscription commitment.

Good luck with your 16bit/8bit question.

Cheers,

Graham

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martinimages Profile
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Re: Do I need Photoshop?


You know people who say they cant see a differences working in 8 as to 16 bit have not got a clue, so do not listen to that.

Ask Knowledgeable people on this forum that same question and see there response, try to edit a clear sky in 8 bit and see the banding of lost data.

Look at the BIT DEPTH VISUALIZATION on this page

]Explanation of bit depth

And see for your self

Regards
Martin

Last edited by martinimages, 12/Aug/14, 5:09 pm


---
"After that shutter closes it’s all over. The physical light captured on film is all that is left, a history of light preserved in chemical form, and I have to move on to the next one."

http://martinhensonphotography.co.uk
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myotisone Profile
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Re: Do I need Photoshop?


Well, I have gone and signed up for Photoshop. Now downloaded and installed.

 it's obvious from all the contradictory comments across the web, that I am only going to be able to "feel comfortable" going without Photoshop, by using it for a few years and making up my own mind.

Even though there seems to be a lot of support from good photographers that Photoshop is no longer necessary, there is just as much support from equally good photographers that photoshop is still needed for that final level of control.

So the more I asked and the more I read, the more confused I became.

Thanks to everyone who commented, it was useful that this confirmed the lack of consensus.

Now, all I have to do is learn how to use it !

Cheers,

Graham
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myotisone Profile
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Re: Do I need Photoshop?


quote:

martinimages wrote:

You know people who say they cant see a differences working in 8 as to 16 bit have not got a clue, so do not listen to that.

Ask Knowledgeable people on this forum that same question and see there response, try to edit a clear sky in 8 bit and see the banding of lost data.

Look at the BIT DEPTH VISUALIZATION on this page

]Explanation of bit depth

And see for your self



Actually, you have just reinforced the point I was making. That in spite of the science, there are people, with very good credentials, who will say that differences are irrelevant in the real world, even though other people with equally good credentials say that it makes a noticeable and important difference. I am not just talking about bit depth, but anything where "quality" is being discussed.

Until you develop, a personal list of experts you trust, it is very difficult to get answers to many of the questions that people need help with.

Cheers,

Graham


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martinimages Profile
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Re: Do I need Photoshop?


Graham is not "irrelevant" its a fact, if you can work in a 16bit environment you do it, no ifs and buts you do it, BIT depth increase quality in output on print, more bits more colours = better prints, its an important difference. your choice

---
"After that shutter closes it’s all over. The physical light captured on film is all that is left, a history of light preserved in chemical form, and I have to move on to the next one."

http://martinhensonphotography.co.uk
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myotisone Profile
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Re: Do I need Photoshop?


quote:

martinimages wrote:

Graham is not "irrelevant" its a fact, if you can work in a 16bit environment you do it, no ifs and buts you do it, BIT depth increase quality in output on print, more bits more colours = better prints, its an important difference. your choice



Sorry Martin, but you are completely missing my point, which has nothing to do with whether 16 bit vs 8 bit is or is not irrelevant. I just used this as an example of disagreement between experts on something where the science was convincing, and many argue that the practice is also convincing for some or even many.

But while doing my photoshop vs plugins research, more than once I came across the advice to load a file into the plugin as an 8 bit file as it speeded up work, and made no noticeable difference to the final output.

Although going against the science and the perceived wisdom of bit depth, these comments were made by people who were being presented as experts.

Personally, I am happy with 16 bit being better than 8 bit, but there are people out there, more expert than I am, who are not.

I was only using it as an example of something where trying to use information from "expert" opinion on something as subjective as quality is really difficult, even with things where you might think there would be no disagreement such as 16 bit vs 8 bit.

Cheers,

Graham
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